48MP Raw for 3rd Party Apps on Mi 9 EEA?

[picitup]

Hi All

I've been looking for a phone camera to shoot 48MP RAW for 3rd party apps so I can use Open Camera. I have a P20 Pro, but Huawei don't offer any RAW options on this phone for 3rd party apps. I've been chasing them for over 3 months now and they say nice things, but no commitment to upgrade the software.

So...... last week I bought a Mi9 in Spain and found some positive things, but it's not quite there yet. The stock app does have a 48MP jpeg mode, but the output is pretty rough; over sharpened and saturated (oil painting effect). I've tried a *no-support-for-this-app-on-this-forum* port which, despite being set to 48MP, only takes 12MP (4000x3000) jpegs. Interestingly, the *no-support-for-this-app-on-this-forum* port takes better 12MP photos than the stock app at 48MP. Are the stock 48MP photos upscaled 12MP ones?

Interestingly, Camera2 API Probe from the play store shows Level 3 support, but only 4000x3000 (12MP) max resolution.

So does anyone know how I can take 48MP RAW with a 3rd party app? I'm guessing the answer is a new ROM.

Thanks for reading....

Steve

 

[cobben]

As I understand it the 48Mpx sensor is actually a 12*4 sensor, where the each 4 binned together are not ordinary pixels, rather have 4 different colors or something.

 

[picitup]

Yes I've read it's a 'quad bayer' arrangement, but I can't understand whether the only output is pixel binned 12MP or you can get RAW 48mp.

Confusing...

Steve

 

[cobben]

To be honest I don't understand exactly how this works either, but it is apparent that there are not any ordinary 48Mpx there.

Sony Releases Stacked CMOS Image Sensor for Smartphones with Industry’s Highest 48 Effective Megapixels

https://www.sony.net/SonyInfo/News/Press/201807/18-060E/index.html

The new sensor uses the Quad Bayer color filter array, where adjacent 2x2 pixels come in the same color, making high-sensitivity shooting possible. During low light shooting, the signals from the four adjacent pixels are added, raising the sensitivity to a level equivalent to that of 1.6 μm pixels (12 megapixels), resulting in bright, low noise images.

 

[picitup]

Hi @cobben thanks for the link. I've read it and I think they are saying is that for low light, groups of 4 pixels are combined to produce a 12MP image for more pixel area/better low light performance. They also say that you can take images in 48MP mode. I must admit though, the 100% crops of the ships name, the 48MP don't look 4x better than the 12MP one.

So I wonder why you can't take 48MP RAW using 3rd party apps?

Cheers

Steve

 

[cobben]

Hi @cobben thanks for the link. I've read it and I think they are saying is that for low light, groups of 4 pixels are combined to produce a 12MP image for more pixel area/better low light performance. They also say that you can take images in 48MP mode. I must admit though, the 100% crops of the ships name, the 48MP don't look 4x better than the 12MP one.

So I wonder why you can't take 48MP RAW using 3rd party apps?

Cheers

Steve

The "image output format" is "Bayer RAW" it says further down.

Haven't researched further on this, begin only because my wife was thinking about changing her Mi Note 3 for a Redmi Note 7 only because of the "48Mpx" thing.
I told her the Note 3 is probably better, at least for now.

 

[picitup]

The "image output format" is "Bayer RAW" it says further down.

Haven't researched further on this, begin only because my wife was thinking about changing her Mi Note 3 for a Redmi Note 7 only because of the "48Mpx" thing.
I told her the Note 3 is probably better, at least for now.

Hi

Yes I think just about all sensors output Bayer info due to the pixel colour configuration, but it's the resolution I'm after. I'm stuck at 12MP and want 48MP.

Cheers

Steve

 

[cobben]

Hi

Yes I think just about all sensors output Bayer info due to the pixel colour configuration, but it's the resolution I'm after. I'm stuck at 12MP and want 48MP.

Cheers

Steve

Is "Bayer RAW" just "ordinary" RAW?

Well, I think the phrase:
"adjacent 2x2 pixels come in the same color"
means you cannot expect a full 48Mpx RAW output.

But to know for sure you probably have to dig into what the sensor does internally:

"Original Sony exposure control technology and signal processing functionality are built into the image sensor"

 

[cobben]

Is this "Effective" just marketing hype, like the "2.5D" curved screens??

"Industry’s Highest 48 Effective Megapixels"

Is this sensor really just a slightly improved "2.5D" hyped 12 Mpx?

 

[picitup]

Is "Bayer RAW" just "ordinary" RAW?

Well, I think the phrase:
"adjacent 2x2 pixels come in the same color"
means you cannot expect a full 48Mpx RAW output.

But to know for sure you probably have to dig into what the sensor does internally:

"Original Sony exposure control technology and signal processing functionality are built into the image sensor"

Well, I think the output of sensors are Bayer format. In order to see this properly, a sensor image has to be de-bayered to convert back to a normal RGB image.

I think you're right though, how could you get 48M real pixels if colours in a 2x2 matrix are all the same?

Just guessing, but what I think we have here is a pseudo 48MP sensor that produces 12MP images with better detail than a 12MP sensor. The output from the *no-support-for-this-app-on-this-forum* ports is pretty good, even though it's only 12MP.

♫ The more I find out the less I know ♫

Steve

 

[picitup]

Is this "Effective" just marketing hype, like the "2.5D" curved screens??

"Industry’s Highest 48 Effective Megapixels"

Is this sensor really just a slightly improved "2.5D" hyped 12 Mpx?

Yes I think you can often replace the word 'effective' with 'not'.

I think I need to take some photos and try and bottom it out.

Steve

 

[picitup]

OK so here's a few jpegs. The first one is a 48MP taken with the stock app. The second is a 12MP taken with the ported *no-support-for-this-app-on-this-forum*. Third is a crop of the stock 48MP and the fourth is a crop of the 12MP image scaled 200% to 48MP.

OK so now I'm stuck. The forum tells me "The uploaded file is too large for the server to process. " but does not tell me the max size lol. Can anyone help me out please?

Cheers

Steve

 

[cobben]

OK so here's a few jpegs. The first one is a 48MP taken with the stock app. The second is a 12MP taken with the ported *no-support-for-this-app-on-this-forum*. Third is a crop of the stock 48MP and the fourth is a crop of the 12MP image scaled 200% to 48MP.

OK so now I'm stuck. The forum tells me "The uploaded file is too large for the server to process. " but does not tell me the max size lol. Can anyone help me out please?

Cheers

Steve

I don't know the forum limits, but folk usually upload big files to some free cloud service.

Not being any kind of a pro photographer, I won't be able to say anything about your photos.

"I just take pictures."

 

[picitup]

OK so try again. The original pictures are here:

*no-support-for-this-app-on-this-forum* 12MP

Stock Cam 48MP

The 12MP image was upscaled to 48MP (8000x6000) and both were cropped. The results were below:

The above image is the stock 48MP cropped image

The above is the 12MP upscaled image.

My point is that they are hardly different so it looks like the 48MP image is an upscaled 12MP image, not native 48MP from the sensor.

Cheers

Steve

 

[cobben]

My point is that they are hardly different so it looks like the 48MP image is an upscaled 12MP image, not native 48MP from the sensor.

Cheers

Steve

I downloaded both and opened them in the Simple Gallery app.

The 48Mpx photo can be expanded significantly more, and I find the details somewhat clearer, most easliy noticeable in the text on the fire extinguisher.

So there does actually seem to be a difference.

 

[picitup]

I downloaded both and opened them in the Simple Gallery app.

The 48Mpx photo can be expanded significantly more, and I find the details somewhat clearer, most easliy noticeable in the text on the fire extinguisher.

So there does actually seem to be a difference.

Hi did you upscale the 12MP image to 48MP (200%)?

Cheers

Steve

 

[cobben]

Hi did you upscale the 12MP image to 48MP (200%)?

Cheers

Steve

?? How do you "upscale" it?

All I did was look at the pictures in the Gallery app, and expanded them as much as possible to look at details.

 

[picitup]

?? How do you "upscale" it?

All I did was look at the pictures in the Gallery app, and expanded them as much as possible to look at details.

Sorry I didn't explain it properly. In order to compare two images at different resolutions, you load the smaller one into a paint program and change the resolution to the larger image. I did this in paint.net and chose Image/Resize and chose 200% so the 12MP image is now 48MP.

Then you crop the same section out of both images and compare them.

I just tried this with the fire extinguisher and I think you're right. The 48MP one does have more detail than the 12MP one, suggesting the 48MP image is not just an upscaled 12MP one.

Hmm.... thinks.....

 

[cobben]

Sorry I didn't explain it properly. In order to compare two images at different resolutions, you load the smaller one into a paint program and change the resolution to the larger image. I did this in paint.net and chose Image/Resize and chose 200% so the 12MP image is now 48MP.

Then you crop the same section out of both images and compare them.

I just tried this with the fire extinguisher and I think you're right. The 48MP one does have more detail than the 12MP one, suggesting the 48MP image is not just an upscaled 12MP one.

Hmm.... thinks.....

Ok, I don't have any image-faking apps in my mobiles except Snapseed, which I've never gotten around to learning, and it doesn't seem to do that .

We do have paint.net in our daughters Win10 tablet, but I've never used it.

There should eventually appear som camera apps that can specially handle this type of sensor output I would think, as these seem to be quite popular in many new mobiles now.

 

[picitup]

Ok no worries. I quite like paint.net 'cos it's free and easy to use. Upscaling is used often in webcams etc. You know those 50MP webcams you can get from China for £3.99? They are probably 5mp upscaled to 50MP. What a scam!

Yes I agree this sensor is quite new and the mi 9 even newer. Hopefully support will increase, possibly in a *no-support-for-this-app-on-this-forum* port then I can get my 48MP RAW!

Keep Smilin'

Steve

 

[picitup]

Well I may have answered my own question. I think you can get 12MP pixel binned as described above and, depending on which pixels you group together, you can get proper 48MP output. If you look at the following image:

If you slip one row and column of pixels, you can make a group of 4 pixels in the format RGGB, or traditional Bayer. Each white square above has R, G, G and B.

So it seems you can group like pixels together for 12MP low light shots and group unlike pixels together to get 48MP native.

No idea if I'm right or not

 

[picitup]

Hi All

I've reported this as a bug on the Xiaomi Global web site here:

MI 9 Camera2 reports incorrect max resolutions for front and rear (48MP) camera

Add a comment if you'd like to see it too